Speaker 0 00:00:01 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:12 Hi, this is Danielle Hartman and I'm the president of the Shalom Hartman Institute. Today is Monday, October 19, 2020. And this is for heaven sake, the new podcast from the Hartman institutes. I engage project. Our thing today is how do you define pro is in each edition of, for heaven's sake. You'll see Klein, Halevi senior research fellow at the Hartman Institute here in Jerusalem and myself, we'll be discussing a current issue central to Israel and the Jewish world, and then Elana Stein, Hain director of the Hartman faculty in North America. We'll explore with us how classic Jewish sources can enrich our understanding of the issue at the Hartman Institute. We approached the Israel conversation as we do all conversations from a perspective of Jewish values, seeking broad and deep engagement. Our aim is to encourage a series of respectful conversation on Israel, across political lines, promoting understanding and strengthening Jewish people.
Speaker 1 00:01:08 Let's begin. As we approach the American presidential election. There are interesting divisions emerging within the Jewish community. Following historic precedent, the majority of American Jews, according to recent surveys, 70% will vote for the democratic candidate. What is interesting is that a large percentage of Orthodox Jews are obviously not a monolithic group will vote in this election for the Republican candidate. And a similar percentage of Israelis would do the same, many factors impact on individual choices for precedent. And this selection in particular, American domestic agenda are playing a decisive role in people's choice as the future direction of America is felt to be on the ballot and more pressing ways than in the immediate past that said behind some of the divide within the Jewish community is that debate and disagreement as to what constitutes being pro Israel. President Trump has campaigned as being the most pro-Israel president in history and many within the Jewish community who support him as well as in Israel, feel that he has earned that title and with it, their support, he has even accused those who fail to support him, of being disloyal to their country with their country, meaning Israel for others, his supposed pro Israel policies such as moving the embassy to Jerusalem and his deal of the century peace plan are in direct opposition to what they believe are an Israel's long-term interests and responsibilities.
Speaker 1 00:02:44 And as such are not pro Israel in today's podcast, we will explore this category of pro Israel. What does it mean? How does one earn the title does agreement with Israel's government and its citizens constitute an important factor? What does it mean when Israelis and American Jews have a different understanding of the category? Is pro Israel a category for friend? And if so, what does it mean to be a friend, to be clear and discussing the notion of pro Israel? We're not arguing that this should be a determinant factor in individual's choices, nor are we taking a stand on who deserves support. That's not our mission here at Hartman. The parameters of our discussion are simply as follows for those, for whom being pro Israel is a factor in their choice for president. What does the title mean? And how does one earn it? You'll see. Nice to be with you. Again, always a pleasure leaving aside. As I said, the specific question of whether president Trump is pro-Israel or not, what do you believe are the essential qualities that make up this classification of a pro Israel president? And let's focus on president of at this time,
Speaker 2 00:04:05 You know, it's such a deceptively simple question. And if you push me to the wall, what I would say is a pro-Israel president is someone who takes our security needs and concerns. Seriously, who listens to us, not only agrees with us at the end of the day, but who's in the room and you feel that this is someone who you could share your concerns with. The problem is that it's, it's much more complicated for all of us. And it really brings out certain contradictory needs and fears. And so, for example, we want an American president who treats us on the one hand, like a normal country. Don't put us on a pedestal to tear us down. You know, Obama was accused of doing that, just treat us like a normal country. But then when presidents do treat us like a normal country, George Bush, the first for example, we get really upset. Don't you know, that we're an extraordinary country. Don't you see what an amazing place we are?
Speaker 1 00:05:11 What you're pointing to is that there's something more than taking seriously our security concerns.
Speaker 2 00:05:18 Yes. We want to be loved by someone who loves us. You see, I think that if you ask Israelis does pro-Israel mean to love? They'll say, listen, Richard Nixon hated Jews. Maybe he didn't like Israel, but he appreciated our strategic value. And he was one of the best presidents for Israel in history. Obama loved Jews, maybe even respected and loved Israel, but ask most Israelis. And they'll say he was one of the worst presidents for Israel. But if you push even the Richard Nixon Israelis, what they really want is unconditional support. An overwhelming love. That's being proven.
Speaker 1 00:06:03 Let's play with this for a moment because I'm one of those Israelis. And again, I, I feel comfortable talking to people who were president. I don't want to talk about current. That's not our agenda. I always felt that president Obama was unbelievably pro Israel. And for me, I felt that he loved Israel. He loved us here. Now I might disagree with him about his reading, about Palestinians or Iran or whatever it might be. But once there was a feeling of love, then welcome to Jewish people. Don't agree on what our security concerns are. We don't agree. So why should I demand of an American president? A definition of pro-Israel that I wouldn't apply to average Jews or for that matter, even in Israeli, but let's say they have a different political position than I do. The first thing that I look for, and I know it's strange, but I really appreciate you raising it is you started with a policy issue.
Speaker 1 00:07:01 Okay? Take our security concerns. Seriously, listen to us. But then very quickly you went to this emotional yearning for love. And I would just posit two quick points. Number one is that when someone loves us, there's a feeling of you're my friend. And if in that context, there's room for disagreement. And I don't want to assume that the only person who really is pro Israel is the person who agrees with whatever I say at that moment. But I think the other dimension has to do with the profound sense of loneliness. That may be some Jews feel that Israelis definitely feel. And that when there's an American president who we feel loves us, our world is not small anymore.
Speaker 2 00:07:44 Yet the Obama, uh, conundrum brings us back to the question of what happens when you're dealing with a president who may genuinely love you, but holds you up on a pedestal. And I'm thinking, for example, of John Kerry's last press conference, if you remember, he devoted 45 minutes to the middle East, and it was all about the settlements and it drove Israelis mad. That was all he could talk about. And you saw that it was coming from this place of real concern of disappointment. If you have such high expectations for Israel, and then we disappoint you, you're going to get a 45 minute press conference from the secretary of state. That's only about you and not about the other side.
Speaker 1 00:08:33 Let's re conceptualize this for a second, because the first condition you gave for pro Israel was taking seriously Israel's security concerns,
Speaker 2 00:08:42 Not only needs, but concerns. And I want to emphasize that word because what it means is I am obligated to listen to you at the end of the day. I'm not obligated to agree you. We can disagree about Iran, but I need to hear your concerns.
Speaker 1 00:08:59 I think that's a critical point by the way, because you're not interested in somebody paternalistically deciding that pro Israel is not someone who takes over Israel, security needs according to their own definition. So let's look at your conceptualization. A who takes Israel security concerns. Seriously. That means talks to Israel about security issues and feels obligated to take them into account. That's number one, that is number one. Number two, you mentioned loves Israel. There's a feeling of love for Israel, but number three, who doesn't, what put us doesn't have a double standard for Israel. How would you conceptualize your third category? Using the Kerry example? What would be the conceptual category for that? That they love us, but are willing trust still to be normal.
Speaker 2 00:09:50 Don't love us too much. Don't idealized. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:09:53 That's different. That's different. So now we have three categories. I think we're reaching some clarity here. One security concerns, not security needs definition. One, two, that there is a love and three that the love doesn't lead to idealization. When those three come together a candidate is pro-Israel. Whether, whether you agree with them or not, I think we've moved
Speaker 2 00:10:17 Forward. Yes, but I would say that condition. Number two for me at least is optional. I personally am not looking for love. I kept loving other places. I don't need it from the president of the United States. I need the president to take my issue seriously, to understand what it means to be living in the most dangerous region on the planet. To understand that we are in a profound struggle with our aspirations and our reality. I need, I need understand it.
Speaker 1 00:10:50 See, it's interesting for me, love is a very high category. You know, it's true. I've got to say that in America, it's to love Israel. That's going a little too far, but for me, the first thing that I look for is do I feel that there's a profound friendship. I look for profound friendship and friendship will lead to dialogue. In other words, my concerns become important to you because you're my friend. And therefore the necessary quality starts with friendship. Why should I expect of an American administration or for that matter for American Jews to have a more limited litmus test of pro-Israel and friendship than I allow here in Israel.
Speaker 2 00:11:33 I like your subtle qualification because what you're really doing is downgrading love to friendship. I value friendship, enormously friendship had love are not necessarily the same thing. Friendship can of course be love, but it isn't necessarily the same. And so yes, a precondition is
Speaker 1 00:11:54 Freebie. Friendship. Love could sometimes mistakenly lead to idolization love can be dangerous. Let's, let's move to another stage a second. It's really interesting that Israelis, and it seems a majority of American Jews have a very different understanding. Now it's very possible that now that we've clarified this, that these are the three key criteria, friendship, security concerns, and not ization, but still even using those categories, North American Jews and Israelis seem to come out differently on this. What does that mean? Is it that we don't agree about? The three categories is that we place one more important than the other? What is the reason for this difference in your mind?
Speaker 2 00:12:41 I think one of the things has to do with what our friend and colleague OODA Kurtzer would say, which is that American Jews have multiple allegiances Israelis have, when it comes to security, we have one allegiance, American Jews are thinking about the wellbeing of American society.
Speaker 1 00:12:58 You would argue as they should do
Speaker 2 00:13:01 As they should. Of course, of course, when you're an Israeli, the requirements of citizenship lead us to asking about the wellbeing of Israeli society. When you're living in America, you've got a different set of priorities. I would hope that Israel's wellbeing is in the mix. It's not for me as an Israeli to tell American Jews how high up Israel's wellbeing should be when they go into vote. I must respect each individual Americans decision. But the other piece of this is of course, the different circumstances that Israelis and American Jews live under, how we live out our Jewishness. There's a reason why American Jews placed the Cuno alarm close to the top of their list of essential Jewish qualities and Israelis place, a security and the physical wellbeing of the Jewish people at the top of their priority. Because we live in a region that at least until recently has been, uh, almost relentlessly hostile to our survival and American Jews live in one of the most welcoming, if not the most welcoming environment that Jews have ever lived it. And so each community has developed a necessary survival mechanism. In response, we relate to our surroundings through deterrence, American Jews relate to their surroundings through embrace through flexibility.
Speaker 1 00:14:27 One way of looking at what you're saying is there's an objective reality. That's different in each place. And therefore there's an objective reality in Israel and an objective reality in North America, which there's no criticism or paternalism involved, but it's almost saying you North American Jews, if you were in Israel,
Speaker 2 00:14:46 You would be Republicans. And in America we would be Democrats. I argue for something
Speaker 1 00:14:52 More complicated. Maybe the reality is it's not that we have different loyalties is that there are in each country, there are certain ideological, sensitivities and realities that are emerging that impact on the way we think about the world. So for example, part of the beauty of American Judaism is its emphasis on, on issues of equality, human rights, all people being created, the image of God as a essential feature of their Judaism as an essential feature. So if I grow up that one of the essential cores of Judaism is all people are created in image of God and that human beings, as a result, have inalienable rights to ABC and D that I might look at today in Samaria as an occupation in a way that Israelis, don't not because I'm not sensitive to security needs cause I'm six to 10,000 miles away. Part of this, how I engage project is there's also a Torah in Israel, which speaks very deeply about the moral obligation of, of self-preservation not as a default and not as something immoral, but that embracing power and returning to power, there's something very healthy about those values. And that part of what happens is that it's not a Republican Democrat. It's not that you know, you're living in the naive American reality where everybody's loved. I think that's one part, but maybe part of what's happened over the last 70 years is that we've both developed different emphases on Judaism. Some of them might come from our political reality, but some of them might not
Speaker 2 00:16:37 Well, well from being either a minority or majority,
Speaker 1 00:16:41 But not even some of them might just come from various discourses attitudes towards modernity, the makeup of our societies. And that part of our vision of, of a more complete Jewish world is one where the Judaism said, each are producing. Aren't perceived to be idiosyncratic to their particular reality, but that, that somehow we want to learn. And then the implications for pro-Israel you'll see is that we really need a more complex definition. Pro Israel is part of an internal Jewish conversation. You speak about our security concerns. Some of our security concerns pertain to foreign policy. Some of our security concerns pertain to our internal policy. What's endangering us as a people.
Speaker 2 00:17:30 The danger in an American Jewish Israeli conversation is that we will become caricatures of our geographical circumstance. And what we are trying to do, and I engage is first of all, establish broadly a shared set of Jewish values and then make room for the fact that each community will play out its order of priorities differently. That's where circumstances come into play. But if you are capable as an Israeli, only of holding up power, okay, I understand power survival. That's our number one value, but facts, number one through 10, and there's no room to hear what American Jews are trying to tell us. And vice versa,
Speaker 1 00:18:17 If an American Jew makes Lei, Oh, my hope would be they bring some of their Torah. And that it's not just, if you'd all come here, you'd agree. I want to get rid of that. Right.
Speaker 2 00:18:28 That's right. But I would argue that if American Jews lived here and we lived there, the order of priorities might be different. American Jewish liberals might be emphasizing security more than morality. For example,
Speaker 1 00:18:46 It's not security more than morality. It's one feature of morality over another feature of her
Speaker 2 00:18:51 Even better, even better
Speaker 1 00:18:54 If you had to. And this is very personal. You'll see, you know, we have these three categories, but beyond the categories, is there a particular issue when you're talking about a president who has the ability to shape our lives and our future that you look for symmetry with support from, is there an issue more than other issues?
Speaker 2 00:19:17 Can I choose three? I would say seriously, Iran, which I regard as the single greatest threat facing Israel since 1973. And the second is the nature of Israel's asymmetrical Wars on our borders with Gaza, with Lebanon and the profound moral complexity of fighting a symmetrical war. And the third is how you navigate the Palestinian issue. Do you take the needs of a two-state solution seriously? On the one hand, are you truly committed to working for a two-state solution? Which for me, I think is in Israel's essential long-term interests, but are you also able to hear the fears of Israelis about a two-state solution?
Speaker 1 00:20:12 You'll see, let's take a short break. And when we return Elana Stein, Hain will join us.
Speaker 3 00:20:21 Hi, my name is Sabra Waxman and I'm the senior marketing manager at the Shalom Hartman Institute of North America. I wanted to tell you about an event next week, specifically for high school students. If you're interested in learning with Hartman on November 10th at 8:00 PM, Eastern we're hosting a conversation and Q and a with slate, senior editor and Hartman, senior fellow Dahlia, Lithwick moderated by Justin Pines, our director of youth and young initiatives to register for this and other upcoming events go to Shalom, hartman.org, backslash events,
Speaker 1 00:20:59 Elana, great to be with you as always what was in our tradition could help us think about what a pro Israel president or individual might be.
Speaker 4 00:21:09 So I want to do my, um, characteristic American move on this podcast and think about this from a very American perspective. And I want to change the orientation from what we do to you, to what we do for, you know, we talk a lot about how Israeli sacrifice and it's impossible almost as impossible to be an Israeli. Who's not pro-Israel because you sacrifice each and every day. And I want to talk about sacrifice among American Jews. I think that being able to give something up political, social, economic capital, something that to me matters if it's on Israel's behalf, that to me is at the heart of what it means to be pro-Israel. And by the way, it can be for a Jew in the street. It can be for a politician. And I want to look at a text about conversion. The reason I want to look at a text, two texts about conversion is because we're pro-Israel by choice.
Speaker 4 00:22:11 We're not in a situation. Thank God like our European brothers and sisters, where we have to be pro Israel because we're in danger. It's a different game. So I want to start with, you have emote 47, eight in the Babylonian Talmud about conversion. The Sage is taught with regard to a potential convert who comes to a court in order to convert at the present time when the Jews are in exile, the judges of the courts say to that convert, what did you see that motivated you to come to convert? Don't you know, that the Jewish people at the present time, anguished suppressed, despised and harassed and hardships are frequently visited upon them. If that potential converts is. I know. And honestly, I'm unworthy of joining the Jewish people and sharing in their sorrow. And nevertheless, I desire to do so. And if that person does that, the court accepts them immediately and starts the conversion process.
Speaker 4 00:23:14 Now let's just start with that. If you want to be pro Israel pro that you wish people, you need to be willing to say warts. And all I identify with this group, even though it means that there are people are gonna attack me for it, even though it means that there are times when I'm not going to be able to be in places where I used to be able to be before I decided to be part of this people. And then the passage continues and says, and you know what, it's, it's actually, it's not exactly enough to identify with the negative, but there's a little bit more, the judges of the court informed the convert of some of the easier mitzvah vote that are more lenient and some of the more strict myths vote. And then they inform them of the sin of neglecting certain mitzvah.
Speaker 4 00:24:12 And they inform that person of the punishment for transgressing, the mitzvah, meaning there's an elements here. We want you to identify with the people warts and all, even if it impacts you in a negative way. And we also want you to share some values. We want you to feel like there's something you actually have in common. And that's part of the identification. And the reason why I really love this as a kernel of what it means to be pro-Israel is because it applies right and left. If you're right wing pro Israel, as an American Jew, there's plenty that you give up. You give your time, you give your energy, you give your money, you give your political capital. There's so much, but if you're left wing and pro-Israel as an American, you, you do the same. You walk into places where they look at you funny, because they say, what are you doing here in this social justice space? You are a pro Israel Jew. You don't belong in our more liberal spaces. And they're giving something up by saying, no, no, no. I'm here with my Israeli flag. And I don't want us to lose focus on that just because we're asking, what is the relationship feel like between American Jews and Israeli Jews? I want to say, what does it feel like for an American to say, I'm willing to give something up.
Speaker 1 00:25:33 I hear your two categories as playing out very much. This notion of friendship, that on the one hand you're a friend is through thick and thin. Your first definition is I don't want Fairweather friends. If you're a friend of Israel, it's not a fair weather friend. And the second one is that friendship involved. Some, some reason for being friends, friends is not a relationship of interests. So those two dimensions that all applies really well to the American Jew, but let's go to the president for a second. No president of the United States would ever do anything that's against the interests of the United States, nor would we ever demand that they're always going to look at America's interests as they should. So how would you translate both categories of thick and thin or fair-weather friend to a president? And the second one shared values, which goes beyond the three that you'll see and I spoke about, but it goes into the definition of friendship.
Speaker 4 00:26:34 Sure. So I think shared values is not difficult. It's democratic country democracy in the middle East, blah, blah, blah. I just don't think it's very to get to some shared values. I think the question in politics, Fairweather friends, that's what politics is often, right? Which is why I didn't talk about it as Fairweather friends. I talked about it as sacrifice. You know, what I'm interested in is I'm interested in the difference between people who are willing to give something up. Even politicians,
Speaker 2 00:27:07 Give me an example of what you'd say an American politician would give up.
Speaker 4 00:27:11 I think it's actually not so different from left-wing American Jews, to be honest for an American politician, to be able to say, look, I understand that there's a lot of pressure coming from the left for BDS, but I reject it. That's actually giving something up. I'm thinking about the campaign trail right now. Meaning one of the things that's going on in terms of Jews looking at the Biden camp, depending on where they are in terms of Israel is they're saying, well, how could he associate with SAR, sewer and this and that. And then there are other people were holding up and saying, but wait a second, he's actually standing up and saying, I know that I'm getting pressure from people on my left to abandon Israel and not say that I'm a franchisor, but I won't do that. Which I think actually is a moment of sacrifice.
Speaker 2 00:27:57 You're looking for a place where a person is willing, even if for the sake of larger, just as people
Speaker 4 00:28:03 Correct. It backs them into a certain corner. It look, I want to, I want to offer you another test for a minute, which is you have a moat 24 B rubbing a fam. You would say with regards to people who convert forcibly, okay. Converted by lions. They were afraid of lions. It's a story in and bet in two Kings or people who convert based on a dream or, and is the last category that I care about here. People who convert in the time of mortify and Esther. Why? Because the Jews are ascendant because they're afraid of the Jews. Those people are not converts until they convert at the present time. And then the Thomas says, what do you mean only people who convert at the present time are allowed to be converts and then says, no, no, no, no. It has to be at a time.
Speaker 4 00:28:48 That's like the present time when Jews are in exile and there's no material benefit to conversion. And then it follows up saying, there'd be no converts in the days of the Messiah. And we don't really think this way legally, but there'll be no conference in the days of Messiah. And there, there weren't converts in the days of King David or King Solomon. Why? Because it was an advantage to convert. Then you got something out of it, right? I'm also curious about the other side, which is when somebody is pro Israel politician or Jew, because they're getting something out of it because it empowers them in some way.
Speaker 2 00:29:25 So you're saying that's a negative, always going to be temporary. It's readily American strategic relationship. Didn't begin until after the six day war, when America concluded that there's something in this special relationship for us, it's not just shared values,
Speaker 4 00:29:42 Of course, but that's why in times when you have real trouble, you need to go back to some shared values. My question is when we look at pro Israelism as something that's only about interests, we're going to find ourselves in a very bad place. I just, I don't want to be simplistic about it if we want it for the long haul. And you can argue Yesi that the fact that this strategic relationship depends on interests is exactly why we're in trouble right now.
Speaker 1 00:30:10 Right? So Elana is looking for, and what he learned us adding to the conversation, write down. This is what she's pushing for. If I understand you, right, is that I don't want you to be my friend because it's in your interests. And I don't only want you to be my friend when times are good friendship for you is the person who you feel is putting something on the table that they didn't have to put on. That, that life might've been more simple. Even if it's for long-term interests. When that happens, then that's the type of friend that you feel you're safe with. It's not going to change when the interests change. It's not going to change when, when the political map changes. It's an interesting question where I've Angelicals will fall into Ilana's definition if we play an essential role in, in a messianic story or not.
Speaker 1 00:30:53 But that core theory, um, at the end of the day, um, as we talk about pro-Israel and we talk about friendship it's because we know that the reality of Israel is a vulnerable reality, and it's a lonely reality for many years. Our most consistent long-term friend is in the United States. And therefore, who is the president or who is not, the precedent has a profound impact on our lives. You're sending a lot out. It was great being with you for heaven sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute. It was produced by Debicki, Kelman and edited by Tolli Cohen. Our managing producer is Dan Friedman and music is provided by so-called to learn more about the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit us
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Speaker 0 00:31:57 <inaudible>.
